How to set up user-centred design to save time and money

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ANNA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome, good morning. Nice to see the list going up. My name is Anna, I work for Made Tech as a Senior Events Manager. Welcome to those still joining. Hello, good morning. Welcome to the webinar on how to set up user-centred design to save time and money.

I am just here welcoming you. We are going to wait one to two minutes, just to give everyone a chance to join, then we will get started. Welcome. Sorry for the ones that were here at the beginning, I keep saying hello, but for the people still joining. Welcome, everyone.

Hello, good morning. Again, my name is Anna, I am from Made Tech. I work as a Senior Events Manager and I am here to introduce the webinar on how to set up user-centred design to save time and money.

We are just waiting a few minutes just to give everyone a chance to join this morning, and then we’ll get started. I think we have reached the limit of participant numbers so hello again everyone. I am here to introduce the webinar on how to set up user-centred design to save time and money with Joanne, our User-centred Design Principal. I will pass over to Joanne now. Enjoy.

JOANNE: Thank you Anna and thank you everyone for joining. I am going to talk about how to set up user-centred design to save time and money.

I am going to start with a quote. “If I’d asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Henry Ford may or may not have said this. My point is, I have heard this often in my career – multiple times.

If you ask people what they want, they do not know, and they are going to come up with daft ideas. People who have said this to me believe that talking to users is a waste of time because users do not really know what they want. I suppose the business know what they want to build, and they also know what resources they have got. We also know what is good for our users.

So, as the session moves on, please keep this in mind. What is the point of user-centred design, and designing what users want?

In this session, these are the things I would like you to leave with. I would like you to have a clearer idea of what user-centred design is. You are going to know how to set up user-centred design in a way to save you money. Also, how to introduce user-centred design to your projects and your teams.

I am also going to leave you with a few tips and tools on how to start a project well, as well as a couple of lightweight user research techniques that you might want to try out.

A few introductions. First, me. I am Joanne Moore, and I am a User-centred Design Principal at Made Tech. I have been here since about March this year. Throughout my career I have always worked in the public sector and public services. Most of my career was at the BBC. I worked in Design Engineering, where I worked on things like the iPlayer, BBC Homepage, BBC Search, those big projects that you know.

I also worked in research and development for a long time. I was looking at emerging technologies and understanding what kind of experiences people would want around these emerging technologies.

I have also worked in local government. I have worked for a local authority, so I have been at the ground with front line staff building services to serve those audiences. At Made Tech we work with the public sector. We work across local government, central government, education, health, and other public services.

My degree was in fine arts. I am telling you that because people are unsure of how we get into this industry. I started out in fine arts and then started working in the BBC and I realised my knowledge was – I knew why things needed to be done a certain way, I just did not have the knowledge or the principles or the understanding or the background of why those things were like that. So, I did a Masters in Computer Interaction. I also work part time and I am a single parent. This industry has a place for me and a place for everybody.

About Made Tech: Made Tech have nearly five hundred staff now, so we are growing rapidly. We currently have four offices around the country. I am in the London office in Central London. That is where I am now.

A recent project we have worked on is a project with D:Love It has been through a beta assessment, and it is used currently by housing offices around the UK. Made Tech’s user-centred practise team is made of designers, researchers, business analysts and product managers.

How this session is going to run: I am going to talk for about half an hour, and I am going to leave plenty of time for questions at the end. The chat has been disabled and I cannot see any of you. There is a Q & A box at the bottom, so if you want to ask questions, put them in there. We will remind you again at the end.

Also at the end, I would really love to hear your feedback. We are going to put feedback in the chat as well, at the very end.

What is user-centred design? If you Google it as a phrase, you will see lots of images with loops and circles. It is an ongoing process. It is an ongoing process of understand – concept – build. Those labels might be different, but the principle is the same.

In the Understand phase, we are testing something by learning something or by asking questions. We are asking questions about the problem; we are trying to understand the users better. We are understanding the tools and the technologies that we have. We are understanding all the systems that we have in place. We are understanding something.

Then we are going to move into Concept, which is the ideation phase. Having lots of ideas, sketching, and thinking. This is where we make sense of all the things we have learned. We also find more questions to ask.

In the Build, we choose something to put in front of users or to test. Does this thing work, and how are we going to know? What are our measures of success and how are we going to test this thing? There are lots of different methods in there.

Once we have built something and we have tested it, we have asked people lots of questions about it, we are then back in the Understand phase. We have understood something new about the problem or the solution, and then we go back around the loop again.

This goes back to the Henry Ford quote. Why are we asking our users what they want? Part of the problem is that they are not designers, we are. However, they are subject matter experts in a problem area. So, we really need to learn from them. We really need to listen to them. Our job, or my job, is to understand the problem area from their perspective. And of course, they are going to say they want faster horses. What they are doing is expressing a need to go faster.

The problem is that people want to travel faster. If we go straight to Build, we are going to build faster horses. If we dive into the Concept stage, we can start to think of ideas. There are a gazillion ways of exploring this and exploring the possibilities.

I am going to start by talking about how to set up user-centred design to lose money. How do we set up to fail? We may have found in our work that we spend money on solutions that we do not really know have a chance of working until they are in place. Sometimes what happens is the solution does not work, so people often have to find workarounds to do the thing that they need to do.

One way to lose money is to start with a solution; have a very fixed, rigid idea of what it is that we think people want. Often people think that designers just make pages or sprints that are needed for this solution. However, designers ask questions. We ask lots of questions to help us understand what is going on, to help us get towards that solution.

Be prepared to hear lots of questions, and to hear uncomfortable answers, answers that do not quite fit with the solution you thought you had. Another way to set up user design to lose money is to talk to the wrong people. It can be easier – it is easier, to keep research within the project team, just grabbing a few people to go through a few sprints. Recruitment can be difficult, particularly if we have got hard to reach audiences.

The problem with getting people you know who are around the office or in the teams you are working with is that they are already comfortable with digital technology. Not only do they already know how to use it well, but they probably also know how to build it. They know the system well, as well. They are not coming in with the mindset of somebody who needs to solve that problem or complete that task. They do not have similar limitations to all our users. They do not fully understand the impact of digital literacy and digital inclusion.

We really need to find those users who match our end users. If there is a harder to find user group – for example I did some work with social care, and I was trying to find people who access social care but do not talk to the local authority – they are hard to find because they are hidden. What I needed to do was to get as close to those people as I could. I was speaking to lots of council staff, and the service providers providing social care. Service providers, social workers, the finance team, and other frontline staff.

Through those people we may be able to build trust with those hard-to-find users and then be able to recruit them.

Leaving user research to the end. This is a classic. If we brought it in at the end, we can tell you if people can complete their task, we can find out if it solves their problem or not or even if they are going to use it. The problem is that too much has been invested in this work. It becomes hard to change anything. The overall concept of how this thing works as well as the final detail of the interface.

Bringing in stakeholders too late. That is kind of similar to bringing user research in too late. If we involve the decision makers at the end, if we show them all the work we have done, they have not seen how the work has evolved. They do not understand why decisions were made.

When they set the brief, or when they had an idea of what you were doing, they had quite a clear picture in their head of what that would be. The thing you are producing at the end is different, so what they are going to want to do is change it again and make those adaptations. That is why it is important to involve them early. Not only involve them early, but we also really need to respect their time. We really need to set expectations about what we need from them. Make sure they are abreast of the work in a way that is not asking too much of them.

The level of commitment we need from them, and ceremony – are they able to come to show and tells? Can we send them decks for them to review?

We have spoken about how to lose money. How can we save money? Saving money is about saving time, avoiding duplication, and building relationships. First, understanding the problem. I have had many projects where it has not been clear what the problem is or who it is affecting.

Part of my work is understanding what the problem is and what are we trying to solve. Once we know there is a problem, who does it affect, and how is it affecting them?

Communicating well. I spoke a bit about stakeholders and decision makers earlier. This is about asking good questions, setting clear objectives and expectations early. This is all about building trust and relationships. Another thing about user-centred design is around experimenting and sense-checking. We have the tools that allow us to try out low-cost, low-fidelity solutions, and we can test them out quite quickly. So, rather than investing too much time and money into the wrong solution, we can do some small, cheap experiments, just to make sure things are going the right way.

How can we do this? I am going to talk a bit about user-centred design in the public sector first. It is a given – is it a given? Our services need to be inclusive and accessible. We are building essential services for thousands and millions of people. Many of us work in the public sector, and it has a slightly different challenge to the private sector.

In the private sector, users might have a choice whether to use your service. In the public sector because those services are essential, they are going to have to use them. People must pay their council tax. They are going on holiday; they need a passport. They need to use your service regardless of how well designed it is.

We also work with vulnerable people, and we need to be aware of their needs as well. They might be in quite stressful situations, they might not have much access to digital technology – to devices or being able to connect.

Something we can do, we can save money by getting digital services right for people who can access them and can use them. If those people can self-serve, we can then free up more time and resources for those more vulnerable residents.

If digital public services are bad, people are going to find other routes to get the information they need, or to get the task done. This is something I experienced in local authority. Our call volumes went up, and the call lengths were longer as well. People could not find the information they needed on the website, so they would have to phone up or come in.

Recently when I was working on social care, I was speaking to finance officers. Most of their time was spent doing financial assessments in people’s homes because people either could not access the digital system or the digital system was not working well. The officers were having to use their time to travel to residents’ homes to fill in the forms with them.

If the digital services were better, they would be able to self-serve more and there would be other ways of being able to provide this, rather than that one-on-one contact.

User-centred design is essential to public services. They need to be inclusive; they need to be accessible, and they also need to be easy to use.

Introducing user-centred design to your projects and teams when you have designers. Where and when to spend the money on design? I am going to start at the end first. If you start at the end, you will probably waste money. As I said earlier, the decisions have been made, and people are reluctant to change things. Everything has been decided, and there is a box to tick before it has been launched. The issue could be that once it is launched, all the problems are going to start coming in and you are going to understand where people cannot use it, whereas you could have learned that before.

Starting in the middle. The work has already started. Many designers come into projects at these stages anyway. Some things have already been established, and certain things have been decided. This is about the design team learning and integrating into the work. Also learning from the end users, finding out what changes can be made at this stage.

If you start at the beginning, you are more likely to save money because at that point, we can really use our skills and work out what the problem is, what areas to prioritise, and also where to start. Ideally, user-centred design happens throughout a project. If you start at the beginning, you can also decide when to stop. You can also decide whether you have learned enough, or you could have upskilled your team so that they could pick up some of this work.

Costs also tend to go down as projects progress because we tend to get into those patterns of work that have been established, and more is understood, as well. Once those patterns are established, fewer resources are needed.

How to start a project well? I’m going to talk about a kick-off meeting. What is it? A kick-off meeting is an opportunity for the project team which includes the design team, to go through the brief in detail with key stakeholders and team members. We have been given a brief, so we are saying, this is what we think you want, and these are the types of things you mean. This is challenging those assumptions, and different pictures that we have in our minds.

Why is it important to have a kick-off meeting? I have just said it is about challenging assumptions. It is also about just starting to build those relationships and setting expectations and a tone of working for the whole project. What do the team want from the stakeholders, and what do the stakeholders want from the team? What does good look like, and how do we know when we are done?

A few hours of key people and we can focus and become immersed in the work with few distractions. It is often run by the project team with the stakeholders. The project team are there to learn from the stakeholders. They are the subject matter experts; we are there to learn what they meant by that brief. What is driving those decisions? How did the problem emerge and why are they deciding to deal with it now?

The output of the kick-off meeting should be a clear brief. You are going to have a clear objective and you are going to understand what are the measures of success that you have agreed amongst you. You are also going to have a plan, an approach to the work, so you will understand the kinds of activities and things that everybody is doing.

It is also about setting up routine. You probably know about Agile. Setting up those agile meetings, show and tells, communication channels, making sure that the information is flowing. If you remember, making sure that decision makers do not come in late and try to make changes, when many decisions have already been made.

I have a sample schedule for a kick-off meeting that I am going to talk through. What we are going to do is start with introductions, so everyone knows who is in the room, and why they care about the thing we are talking about. The download is for everybody to say what they already know about this area. Then what can the subject matter experts in the room tell us? There might be some activities around that.

Then, the expectations of the project. What is the scale of this, what is the scope, how do you know when it is done? What does success look like? We can also talk about the agile and user-centred design approach, and ways of working, so that everyone is clear what it will look like to work on this project, and how everybody will be involved.

So, a few techniques. Problem framing – unpicking the problem area. Really understanding what it is and who it impacts, and how. What is the scale of this problem? How bad is it?

Stake holder mapping. This is good when there are lots of different partners that are quite disparate. Again, in local authority I was working on a children’s service. I was working with the Police, the NHS, and other children’s charities. How are all those different people involved, and what is their interest in this subject area? Rather than guessing, we can really work on that.
Exploring user journeys. How does this current service work? Have we identified where to focus? We can map it out and look at all the pain points, where things are not working, and where things are working well.

How can you introduce user-centred design to your projects and teams when you do not have designers? First, why do you want to do this? Are you trying to sell user-centred design into your organisation or is this something you want to try out of interest because you know it is important?

What you can do is look at a small feature in your service or product, or you can look at the overall project. That is thinking about the scope, but then why are you doing this, and what do you want to learn? You can do this with your teams. I suggest you keep it simple and stay curious. This whole thing is about asking questions and learning.

Here are some lightweight tips. Why are you doing this? This is the purpose of the work. Am I selling it into my organisation? What do I want to learn about this service or this product? What resources have you got? Is it just you? Have you got other people who would like to do some of this work with you? Have they even got the time? What are you going to do with what you find?

Ethics – if you are going to speak to anybody, you must gain consent first. People need to know why you are asking them questions, what is expected of them? Is this a conversation or are you going to give them tasks to do? They need to know why you are doing this, and what is expected of them. What are you going to do with this data? Who is going to see it, and what are you going to do with it? How are these people going to be identifiable?

If you are doing a Zoom call, are you going to take screenshots of them? Are you going to pull out video clips of them? Are you going to refer to them by their name or what they do, or where they live? Or are you going to anonymise the data and pull out quotes? People need to know this before you speak to them.

I am going to go through two methods now. I will talk briefly about task-based user testing and semi-structured interviews. They are both quite different techniques. Task based user testing is about seeing people using your product or your service. Keep this simple. You are there to listen and observe. You give them some simple prompts and most of the time, they will be talking and doing stuff, and you will be listening and watching.

Sample script. If you put something in front of people, for example, it might be a mobile service, you can ask them simply, what is this thing? What can you do here? Then you can ask them, “Can you do that thing?” You might ask them to do something specific that this thing does. At the end of it you can ask them, “What did you like about that? What didn’t you like about that? What could change?” So, those are a few simple questions that you can ask somebody while they are using a service or product. This is about observing. You can watch them to see where they are getting stuck, or where they are looking for things.

The next method is semi-structured interviews. Rather than showing them a thing, this is about listening to people’s experiences of your product or service. This is assuming that you have a thing there, but that thing is really to prompt the conversation. It is not about testing how this thing works. Again, keep it simple, ask open questions. An open question is a question where you cannot say yes or no. It is why, what, how, when, who questions. Do not interrupt them and leave pauses.

You are there to listen to what they are staying about their experiences. Remember in this scenario, they are the experts, and you are here to learn. For example, they might ask you a question, so with the social care cap again, I ask people what the social care cap and they is ask me back. But I do not want to know what I think, I want to know what they think.
So I ask them again, what does it mean from your perspective? How do you understand it?

If you want to do a semi-structured interview you can ask them about themselves in relation to the product or service you are talking about. How do they use services like that? You can ask them how frequently do they do them, what are they doing on them, how are they using them? What devices do they use? What times of day do they use these things? Do they usually have any distractions? Really understand when they are doing this thing, what is going on for them?

What did you like, what didn’t you like and what would you change? These are the simple questions that I keep going back to again and again.

I have a challenge for you for within the next week. I would like you to try one of those methods, the task-based user testing – getting people to look at an interface that you’ve built, or semi-structured interviews – listen to someone talking about a service that you have.

You can do this with a colleague, you’re just trying this out. You can do it with a family member, you can do it with a partner. The point is – the objective is to see if you can learn something new about the service or the product that you work on. Most importantly, keep it simple.

So, what did I want to leave you with? I hope you now have a clearer idea of what user-centred design is. I hope you also know how to set up user-centred design to save you money. Also, how to introduce user-centred design into your projects and your teams. A couple of tips were – how to start off your project well. I spoke about a kick-off meeting. That is about really understanding the brief and setting up expectations for the work.

A couple of lightweight techniques were task-based user testing and semi-structured interviews. Thank you. Have you got any questions for me? If you remember, you can go into the chat box at the bottom – not the chat, the Q & A. The Q & A box at the bottom if you want to ask any questions.

The first question, thank you. “From a local council perspective, what should we do first if we don’t have designers in the team?”. I mentioned that earlier. If you do not have a design team or designers in the team, and you want to start something, use those simple techniques that I just mentioned. I suggest doing some semi-structured interviews. If you can speak to some residents who are coming in, try those simple techniques. Have those simple conversations.

Something I did not mention about the semi-structured interview is it is good to either record it – you need to get their consent, their permission – record it so that you can listen back. If you are unable to record it, you can also have a colleague with you who can take notes. If you are interviewing somebody, you really need to be focused on them and what they are saying. So, make sure you either have a recording or a colleague taking notes.

Another question. “Involving users at the beginning or the end feels easier. When you are working with ideas or a recognisable product, how do you engage with users part-way through development when it is all a bit messy or technical?”. Thank you for that question.

I worked on a very techy engineering project. It was at the BBC. We were looking at how to edit wave forms. All the engineers were working out how to get a wave form into a browser and how to edit it. They had a few edits features in a basic interface, but they were not confident, they did not think it was ready to show anyone. I took that really sketchy code and I put it in front of some radio producers. I just asked them all to make a couple of 30 second clips or 10 second clips using the interface. So, it was a bit like the task-based user testing I mentioned. Just use the thing that is there and let’s see what we can learn about it.

I think I did about five task-based sessions that lasted about 15 minutes each. From that we had a whole backlog of ways to improve that interface. That is quite specific about an interface. If you were looking at a wider service or a wider product, similarly just find out with the work that has happened, where have we got to and what can we learn from what has already been done? Thank you.

Next question. “What do you think are the most challenging aspects of user researchers using alongside business analysts and or product managers?”.

I think it is communication and ways of working. What can happen is when people start on projects, we all know what we are doing, we know what our skillset is, we know what the problem space is, and people just get on with the work. There is a time to onboard new team members and just make sure that everybody understands the ways of working. How we are working across disciplines, and how we are communicating to the wider team and the wider stakeholders. That is the biggest challenge is not everybody understanding their role in that specific piece of work. I hope that helps.

Another one. “Any other recruitment techniques to get users to interview. Asking services for help was a good tip, thank you.”

It depends on the type of users you want, and how specific they are. I did a piece of work, an exploratory piece of work about a future technology. I wanted groups of people who were friends or knew each other, to interview and ask some questions. I went to some quite big public parks in London, and I saw groups of people who were a certain age and then went through the whole consent thing and then asked them questions. I suppose that’s kind of guerrilla recruitment.

If they are hard to find – this was a very hard-to-find audience, actually – I found them in places where I thought they were not busy, they had plenty of time, they were chatting with friends. They may or may not have been interested in talking to some researchers for about 20 minutes. I have done that.

A more formal way of doing it is that a lot of authorities have panels of users. There is a lot of co-production in local authorities. I am not sure if you are in a local authority, but there are co-production panels where people are writing policy. They bring service users in. That is a good source of users. There are often other user panels in local authorities.

Another good place to go is to some of those bigger organisations or charities that work with that specific user group. I did some work around finance and advice, and we went to Citizen’s Advice. They were able to help us identify where to find those users.

I suppose the key is, where do you think you will find those people and who might know those people?

“What is your experience of using incentives in the recruitment process, and do you have any tips for applying incentives effectively?”.

I have been in a position where I have been able to use recruitment agencies and as standard, they give out incentives and we would say what that incentive was. That was standard. Also, in the local authority we had a budget, and we could hand out those incentives. One of the things I was concerned about was – the incentives are usually vouchers for something. Some vouchers are becoming digital, so there was a point when some people were getting cards as incentives, or even having something go on to people’s phones so they could use their phones to spend money. I have already spoken about digital inclusion. We need to make sure we have inclusive incentives that people can use, so not digitally focused. Also, what kind of vouchers are we giving them? Where are they able to spend those things?

When I was talking about the emerging technology in the parks in London, there was no incentive. The incentive was to spend 20 minutes chatting to me, and I am really listening. People really love talking about themselves. So, it was not that you get 20 minutes with me, it is that you have 20 minutes to talk to me and I am really interested in you. Not quite the answer you wanted, but yes.

“How do I balance meeting user needs and business requirements?” That is our job. There are business needs, there are user requirements, there is also the system. There is more than that. I suppose that is why I was talking about bringing in stakeholders early. Making sure the decision makers are there so we understand what it is that they need. What are the business drivers for this work? We might want to make the most user-centred thing but, the business driver might go against that.

I have worked a lot on authentication. How does a system know how the user is? That is a barrier to the system, to the service that people are using. It is a barrier to their experience. People did not want to sign into anything. That is a perfect example. The business wants people to sign in to collect their data, but the user does not want to sign in. They just want to watch television, or they want to do the thing they are trying to do. So, balancing those needs is part of our job. That is about asking good questions. Also, that barrier that you are putting in front of users, how can we make it a little bit better, a little bit easier so that they don’t just disappear off, so it’s not so bad that they can use a service.

“Do you have any tips for presenting research outcomes to service managers or staff who have incorrect or a fixed perspective of their service users?”

Yes. If we speak to our users and it is coming from them, they are more likely to believe it than if they ask us our opinion. It is obvious, but we really need to get those quotes from the users or see them using things. There have been many times when engineers have been convinced that the thing they have built is perfect because it works for them. Then when they are in the user session or if they see a video of somebody using something, they are frustrated that the people are pressing the wrong buttons, but then they get it. They understand that this really is not working for people. If they see multiple examples of that, then it is clear that this thing needs to change.

This is about gathering evidence. I suppose that is what I was saying earlier on. If you do not have designers in your team, if you want to do user research in the teams you are working in, why are you doing it? Are you trying to convince someone that this service does not work, that people are having problems at this stage? What you can do is just gather that evidence using those simple techniques. They are not simple, lightweight techniques.

Thank you everyone. Someone is thinking about moving careers to service design. What do I recommend? I have not told you much, but my journey into user-centred design is not clear, but then our industry is pretty new and pretty young. I would recommend going to some of the big organisations who talk about all the distinct roles in design really well. You could go to the GDS website, which is the Government Digital Services. Most people who work in the public sector in local government or local authorities use the GDS standards. If you go into there, there are lots of lists of different types of roles and different types of jobs in our industry that may or may not require coding, working in tech.

You will learn about service designers and user researchers and all those different roles. Depending on where you are in your career and how you are thinking, there are many apprenticeships you can do. I recommend things like apprenticeships because you come in and learn on the job. You learn on the job, and you get a qualification at the same time. Here at Made Tech, we run two Academies. We have one for software engineers and we have another one for user-centred design.

You do not need to be an engineer; you do not need to be a designer. You just need to show that you are interested in this area. We need to know that you are interested in users and solving problems and being curious about how to do things.

From that interest, if you are successful in getting onto our Academy, you come in for twelve weeks. For those twelve weeks you are learning alongside some of the design team here. You are also getting real-life practise on projects. Once you have completed the Academy here, you may then come in as a Junior. There is quite a lot of people who work at Made Tech who came in through the Academy. They are now Senior Engineers and Developers. The Design Academy just started this year, but I expect the same there, as well. If you want to know more about our Academy, I haven’t got a link, but if you go onto the Made Tech website you will find out about it.

Do I have any tips on what to do when you experience resistance or pushback on user-centred design work?

Yes. The example I gave with the engineers building that wave form feature, they did not want me to touch anything. So, what I did, this is my advice, do something very lightweight. A couple of people, 20 minutes each, write a quick report with screenshots. The purpose of it is to show them how they can improve the work they are doing.

This is not about me proving how rubbish it is, this is my advice as to how you can improve it. Because it was evidence based and real radio producers had used it, they then took all those recommendations on. Gathering the evidence with real users, that is what I have done in the past. As with the example I have just mentioned, that is the most successful. Also, being quite quick, quite rapid. There is a perception that designers take ages doing anything and it makes the process long. It does not have to be like that. We can work rapidly. I spoke about the design cycle. We can work rapidly and just do quick experiments. Make sure you gather the evidence.

Are there any more questions, anybody? Thank you everyone so much for your time and your attention. Thank you for those great questions as well. If you have any more questions, you can get in touch with me on my LinkedIn. It is in the chat. You have also got the email address for our marketing team, and Anna who you saw at the start. Please get in touch with them. Soon you are going to see a link to a feedback form in the chat. Please fill in that in. I hope to see you again at another Made Tech event. In the meantime, try out one of those methods and see if you can learn something about your service.

Let me just go back to the beginning. At the start I mentioned the quote, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” I hope you now understand the benefits of user-centred design, of speaking to the end users, and how it can save you money. Thank you so much everybody.